One brief glance at Miriam Shor’s IMDb page, and it’s clear she has the range. Just take a look at her four top roles: a former drag queen in the beloved queer musical Hedwig and the Angry Inch, a corrupt scientist in Marvel’s Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3, a tough and glamorous Head of Marketing at a publishing company in the TV series Younger, and a cringe-worthy literary agent in the Oscar-winning satire American Fiction. Despite the wide array of characters, it is a rather comical coincidence that she’s found herself in a bookish sphere multiple times over the past decade, a trend that continues with her work in Pluribus.
Shor takes on the role of Helen Umstead in the series, which was created by Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul’s Vince Gilligan. The show centers on a woman named Carol Sturka (Rhea Seehorn) as the entire world (save for herself and 12 other people) becomes part of an alien hivemind. Their only goal? To make Carol happy and get her to join their ranks. Acting as both Carol’s wife and literary manager, Helen only appears in a couple of episodes, tragically dying right after being inducted into the collective. And yet, her presence is felt strongly throughout, with Carol’s grief serving as a massive obstacle as she attempts to put the world right again.
Helen is absolutely crucial to the narrative, and though Shor doesn’t have a ton of screentime, she makes the most of every single second she appears. She manages to bring more layers and nuance to Helen in a handful of scenes than some actors do in entire seasons. She should be a shoo-in at the Emmys this year, giving not just one of the best performances in the Guest Actress category in which she’s competing, but one of the strongest performances, period.
We got the privilege of sitting down with Shor for an extensive interview about her phenomenal work. During the conversation, she discussed the instant bond she and Seehorn shared, the heartbreaking moment where Carol discovers Helen wasn’t a fan of her work, why she thinks the two of them decided to freeze Carol’s eggs, the kind of flashbacks she’d like to see in Season 2, and much more. She also discusses her feature directorial debut, a documentary called My NDA, which premiered at SXSW this year and currently holds a 100% on Rotten Tomatoes.
Miriam Shor Talks Being a Vince Gilligan Superfan and Helen’s Backstory
DISCUSSINGFILM: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk. I am such a huge fan of yours. I absolutely love your work in the show, and I feel like there’s just so much to dig into. I can’t wait to pick your brain about it.
MIRIAM SHOR: Oh my god, man, it’s so fun to be a part of a show that I’m a total dork over, you know what I mean? I have been a fan of Vince’s since The X-Files, in case you were wondering if I was a nerd. It’s a classic.
I was shooting one of the many failed sitcoms that I made for a while there in the ‘90s on the same lot that they shot The X-Files, and I saw Chris Carter and went up to him, just fangirling, and was like, “Listen, I will bite the head off a chicken to be on your show.” And he was like, “I’m going to go get security, and I’m going to walk backwards away from you.” I wasn’t going to! I’m a vegetarian. But he didn’t know that. He was like, “She’s crazy.”
I think that’s the best background to start with. We get some insight into Carol’s traumatic childhood with the reveal about conversion therapy. I’m curious if you talked to Vince at all about Helen’s childhood or even fleshed anything out in your own mind about what her own upbringing was like.
First of all, conversion therapy. Sorry, I’m going to sidebar, but there are a lot of things that people think are irrelevant societally or tell themselves we fixed. We didn’t fix it. And if we did, the Supreme Court just broke it on conversion therapy.
The pain that we go through is what makes us, right? As well as all the other stuff. So, yeah, I mean, I have to think about that if it’s not on the page. Rhea and I sort of talked about what our relationship was like. I actually think that I’m very clear on what the relationship is based on the writing on the page from the get-go, even from the audition scene, which was like a thinly veiled, Character 1 and Character 2, two different names, you know, like Schmerol and Schmelen.
What’s clear is that Helen is someone who is herself when she cares for someone she loves, so all I do then is think about the qualities in myself that take me there. If I taste something delicious, it’s not as delicious unless I can share it with someone who’s a good friend. Everything about my life — this is just true of me — is exponential when I add a person I love to it. And so I’m like, “All right, well, that’s clear that it’s sort of like that’s who Helen is, too. I can take that into her and her level of generosity.”
And then you have to do the exploration of, “Well, what is Helen getting from Carol?” And for that, I kind of delved into this other thing that means a lot to me, which is privacy. I think it’s a currency we give up freely multiple times a day. There’s a complete lack of value for privacy — and I don’t mean secrecy, although in Carol’s case, yes. Helen is a truthful person, but a private person, and Carol is walking the line between privacy and secrecy, and that makes Helen uncomfortable.
So, the short answer is, I didn’t really talk about it with Vince, but all the work that’s fun to do, that’s fun to think about, and the ways in which I feel like, “How am I like Helen, and how am I not like Helen?” I don’t have the patience. I’m a little less patient. I’d be like, “Come on, man, buck up.” But she does have this reserve for patience because I think that Carol is her person.
That’s such a beautiful way to word that with privacy versus secrecy. Do you think there is a level at which Helen outwardly stays closeted for Carol’s sake? Did you kind of view it that way?
Yeah, I mean, it’s obviously a point of contention between the two of them. And it’s not a resolved thing. And I think, “Look, that’s a relationship. You have the same fight over and over and over again for however many years you’re together.” And I think that’s one of them; this like, “Listen, I love being private, I’m all about keeping what you and I have between you and me because we’re private, but I’m not about being untruthful. We don’t have to hide to be private. Those are different things.” Helen is a truthful person, and so that’s hard for her.
Miriam Shor Was Just as Hurt by This ‘Pluribus’ Scene as You Were
I love how many layers there are to their relationship that we see in such a short amount of time. There’s obviously the personal level, but then there’s this professional dynamic. Which do you think came first — the romantic connection or Helen being Carol’s manager?
We talked about that. I think it was the job and then the love, without all the weird HR issues. [Laughs] I could see us knowing each other in the world before that and being like, “Ohh. Hmm,” but it’s a similar level of taking care of her and of being like, “I got you. I have this strength and fortitude that I’m going to give to you in this way professionally, this way personally, and you give me the same thing in other ways,” and it’s that kind of a relationship. I think it’s heartbreak when you learn that Helen has an opinion — or maybe worse, doesn’t have an opinion.
That leads right into my next question. That [reveal] is such an interesting, devastating twist.
Oof. [Winces] That was such a gut punch to me. I was like, “Oh my god — that’s awful.”
Why do you think that she hid that but still supported her the way she did?
She loved her creativity. She believed in her writing. She believed in her as an artist, even if she was like, “This work? Maybe that’s not my taste. But I know you’re talented, and I believe in you and your talent as a whole, so I’m here to support that. You shouldn’t care what I think of the subject. You just know that I believe in you.” But oh, that’s a hard one.
Miriam Shor Discusses Her “Weirdly Instantaneous” Bond With Rhea Seehorn
You and Rhea built something that felt so authentic and resonated really hard, particularly with us lesbians, so thank you on behalf of the community.
Thank you for saying that, but I hate that there needs to be… I don’t think there should have to be any kind of legitimizing. And I feel like what’s beautiful about our relationship is there isn’t any. It’s just, like, “Of course. This is a love between two people, and it’s strong, and valid, and complicated, and human.” Very important that it be human, because, you know, that’s the crux of it.” And it irritates me when there’s writing that tries to legitimize or make it kind of candy-coated as opposed to making it real, because Jesus fucking Christ, why are we still having this conversation about the reality of love between people?
Yes, the writing is so good, but also your guys’ acting is just so lived-in and real. I asked Rhea a little bit about how the two of you sort of built your dynamic and she mentioned pajama parties, puzzles, and ’80s music. For you, what was the most helpful part about establishing that bond and dynamic with her?
I don’t know if Rhea talked about this too, it was a weirdly instantaneous recognition of a person who is, like, one of your crew. When I talked to her for the first time, I was like, “Oh my god, this is like my old friend I’m just meeting.” It was a really strange kind of purple crystal woo woo cosmic thing, which I’m not into, but it just felt instant. You can’t plan for that, but you can take it and run with it. So then you’re just like, “Oh my god, this person is my friend,” immediately, and we had so much fun together. We made each other laugh.
We just really leaned into that, because that’s so much of a life you build with a person: your in-jokes, and the way you can make each other laugh, and the way you can look across the room, and you know exactly what they’re talking about from across the room. That kind of shorthand is whatever kind of bonding you can do, and obviously, we bond through a pajama party. She’s just so fun and wonderful, and when you watch her on screen, that’s your secret hope. And then, let’s talk about how really hard it is to fall in love with Rhea Seehorn.
The hardest task, I’m sure.
Mhm. America’s like, “We already did it.” Yeah, love at first sight.
Speaking of the lived-in dynamic, there are all these photographs around the house that we eagle-eyed fans have spotted, and Apple TV is posting some of them. I’m always curious about how those come to be. Was there a day when you just did photoshoots?
[Laughs] Yeah. I don’t know if you can tell this about both Rhea and me — I mean, I think you could absolutely tell it of me if you just try to look at any pictures of me on a red carpet — I don’t enjoy having my picture taken. It’s really brutal, because I’m a person who moves. I talk with my hands, I move around, and my face moves still — I’m one of the last actors that’s true of. I’m in motion, and so a still photograph of me does not feel like me ever, so I hate it. I hate having my picture taken.
But they’re like, “We need their whole life in pictures in three hours. Cool with that, guys?” And there’s a silliness to that, but at the same time, that’s the assignment, and that’s the fun of being an actor, and you’re like, “Okay, let’s do it.” We were very stupid a lot of the time. There are many hilarious pictures of us, especially when we were like, “Okay, be as glamorous as we can,” and we’re both like [makes silly face]. Who can make the other one laugh more was my other assignment in tandem with my pretending we’re a couple for many years.
I hope we get some of the silly outtakes. I would love nothing more.
I’m fine with it. I’m sure Rhea would be, too. I’m not sure if Apple would be like, “Oh, god — I don’t know if this one should be out there. What is Miriam doing with her face?” Just living!
Miriam Shor Loves That ‘Pluribus’ Trusts Its Audience
The production design, even beyond that, is so amazing, and the set decoration feels very detailed. The quilt that Carol buries Helen with feels very meaningful. I’m curious if you were told anything about its significance, because I feel like that held some weight.
No, but I will say this — a quilt is a brilliant thing to use, because a quilt isn’t a random thing. The patchwork quilt is very idiosyncratic, and you’re not just getting a generic one. That one really looked like it had history and stories. Maybe there was one of us who didn’t love that quilt and the other one who did for a while until it became the thing we love — that kind of thing. It’s a good eye.
It’s also just that the people who create this world, all of the people who Vince Gilligan brings together, are so thoughtful about every choice they make for exactly the reason that you’re pointing out. You look at it, and you start creating a story, which enriches everything about the world that you’re becoming invested in as a viewer.
I did spend some time on set. I had a friend be like, “Was that you in it?” I’m like, “How do you think we make movies? Huh? How do you think we make TV? You think that I spent 12 hours wrapped in a blanket and then they buried me? [Beat] Yes, yes, it was me.” It wasn’t me. But what I love is, I don’t have a lot of screen time in this show, but Helen really looms. It’s so important that she looms large, so there are clues throughout, because that’s what loss and grief are. You’re okay, you’re fine. You’re getting through your day, it’s fine.
And then, a dirty cup suddenly stops you, and you can’t move forward from that moment. There are little things that they added that were visual storytelling that were devastating, and so thoughtful, and such good storytelling. So much of the story is told visually and doesn’t write down to us as an audience. It lets us in. It’s like, “Oh, I think you’re gonna be able to handle this,” and you’re like, “Yeah, thanks, man. I think I can, too.”
Thank you for trusting me!
Thank you so much for trusting me. That’s kind of what I mean about the relationship between Helen and Carol, too. Like, “[sing-song voice] They’re lesbian.” Like, no. Yes, they are, of course, but I just mean, it’s not a TED Talk. They’re humans. The way that it’s presented is so three-dimensional. I can’t believe we need to still have that conversation, but it’s super important, especially at a time when communities are being… I was gonna say maligned, but that’s too nice a word. Endangered.
Rhea also said something interesting about how she thinks Helen is sort of this barrier between Carol and the whole outside world. I’m curious if that’s how you viewed it as well, because I thought that was such an interesting way to summarize that.
Yeah, like a protective tissue, right? Carol is simultaneously steel, strong, an iron coil, and deeply vulnerable, right? And so, Helen can just be there to sort of be a forcefield when there’s something that could hurt her and is happy to be that. It doesn’t cost her anything. It doesn’t cost Helen. It feeds her.
This is her way of loving, and I think she can see the cost for Carol, and when you find out why Carol is so vulnerable. I mean, the harm that she has undergone in just being who she is…that’s gonna deeply wound you. Even just talking like that, it needed me to be like [holds arms out], “Yup, I got you.” I think that’s who Helen is for her, for sure.
And I think Carol does that for Helen in other ways, too — in more personal ways at home together, in ways that are just between the two of them. Look, anyone who’s ever been in a relationship with an introvert, who is like, “It doesn’t cost me anything to go do this thing. It’s fine,” but it’s actually costing you a lot. I can see that, as opposed to people who might be like, “Oh my god — suck it up. Just go over, and do that thing.” Then you don’t understand an introvert and the reason for that introversion, too.
I’m curious if you could expand a little bit on the things that you think Carol gives to Helen in those more personal moments. I think that’s really an interesting idea, of Helen being the one in public, but maybe Carol taking care of her more in those more private moments.
Again, you’re playing pretend real fast. You’re building up things, and you just take it from what you got, and what I had was Rhea Seehorn, which is an embarrassment of riches. Rhea is someone who will go to bat for every person she encounters on that set. She’s just someone who is so present and so solidly herself.
I think when Carol’s not in public, Carol is Carol 100%. And if I were talking about Helen, where truthfulness meant a lot to her in terms of who you really are, in private, that is Carol. And for very clear reasons, that isn’t Carol in public. And we understand why. At first, we don’t, I’m sure. At first, you’re like, “Jesus Christ, lady.”
And then you see what happened to her, and you know that it’s much, much, much, much deeper than that. Helen knows that, too, but I think between them, there is only exactly who we are to each other 100%. “I will always show up for you.” And that’s maybe why there’s that disappointment when Carol’s not ready to be out publicly.
Miriam Shor Reveals Why She Thinks Carol Froze Her Eggs
The fact that Carol froze her eggs is such a crucial part of the plot.
Just thrown in there. [Laughs]
Yeah! It also says so much about her and about their relationship, I think. What do you think those conversations between Carol and Helen were like? Do you think it was Helen who was drawn more to the idea of motherhood?
As someone who is a parent — who’s a mother — what you have to do is be hopeful. You have to. You choose to bring a person into the world, you can’t be like, “Oh, well, kid, it’s all going to shit.” You have to be optimistic and hopeful, which is terrifying and impossible, but also a gift. Like, “Okay, you’re forcing me to come up with reasons, in the face of the shitstorm that we’re going through right now, to believe, and to be hopeful about the world and humanity,” which very much speaks to the entire plotline of the show.
I think Carol and Helen’s belief in humanity is really right there in the freezing of the eggs. Because if the world were a true shitshow, you wouldn’t do that. But if you believed in humanity, if you believed in the possibility and the hope of who we are, then yeah, you’re like, “Okay, we’re gonna keep this going. We’re gonna keep on this journey.” So that is really like a clue into [that], as hard as Carol is. And the fact that it’s Carol’s eggs.
I don’t know what happens in Season 2. But it says something very strongly to me about Carol and Helen’s relationship that they’re like, “Yup, we believe that we can bring a person into the world and let them be exactly who they are, and it’s going to be great.” And that’s just a freaking tragedy. It breaks my heart.
It’s so sad, because I feel like Helen is this very natural caretaker. I feel like she would have been a great mom. And I think that there are moments that show Carol would have been, too, despite everything.
Oh my god, they would have been the best moms. The great thing about parenting as a team is that when you’re faltering, the other person can pick it up. You can pass the baton in that way. You can be like, “Oh my god, I’m really fucking this up. Please come help.” You have someone who’s got your back if you’re like, “I love this kid, and I cannot keep teaching them to tie their shoe for the next five hours. I’m gonna lose my mind.” Tag out, and the other person comes in. [Beat] That’s not from real life.
No, that’s hypothetical for sure.
I didn’t just reveal something about my parenting style. [Laughs] I mean, the level of patience you need to be there as a person becomes a person is extraordinary, but it’s also pretty remarkable, and it will expose your flaws immediately. So you gotta be with someone who’s like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know your flaws. I’m still cool with you.”
Miriam Shor Shares Her Thoughts on Stursia and Speculates on How Helen Would’ve Reacted in Carol’s Situation
The season obviously sees Carol and Zosia start a relationship.
Mhm. Mhmmm.
How do you think Helen would feel about her moving on with female Raban?
Okay, you know what? I think Helen and Miriam differ a little. Miriam, the fan, was like, “What? Say what? Oh, right in front of the grave? Right there in the window? I don’t think so.” I was like, “I don’t know about that.”
But I think Helen wants Carol’s happiness. I think Helen would not be trusting of this. I think the biggest problem Helen would have would be like, “Carol, you don’t want this, but you’re doing it. Deep down, you know it’s not right, and that’s fucked up.” As opposed to, “If this was really going to make you happy — if this is truly your choice — okay.” But I don’t think that was going on. I think it was a hiding of sorts. Yeah, I was super jealous, but also, who’s the most beautiful woman on the planet? And charming?
Obviously, the show follows Carol’s journey of losing Helen and grieving while adjusting to this new world, but how do you think Helen would be behaving if the roles were reversed and she was the person who had lost her wife and was one of the few survivors?
I don’t know if Helen would make it without her person. I don’t know. I mean, look, if they wrote it that she made it, then she would make it, I’d find a way to make it work. But I think Helen is like, “I can do anything, and you can bug the shit out of me, and throw tantrums, and all of that. I can handle every piece of shit that gets thrown at me as long as you’re here.” But if Carol wasn’t there, I don’t know if Helen would find meaning. You would hope that a human could heal from it. I just don’t know if she could.
And I don’t know that Carol knows that she could; that’s her grappling, but at the same time, I think Helen would want Carol to. She’d be like, “Oh, no, no. You keep going. Sure, remember me. Whatever. Light a candle or what have you, but you keep going.” But yeah, I don’t know if Helen could do it. She’s strong in many, many ways, and I think that would be a major chink in her armor.
I so wish we had gotten to see Helen interact with these other characters, like Zosia, Diabaté, and the DHL guy, even. Who would you most like to share a scene with?
Oh. I mean, well, Zosia, I’d just like to be with Karolina, because I love her as a person, so that would be super fun. Also, I think you would get to see the side of Helen… “[sing-song voice] She’s got endless patience for people,” but I think you might see a side of Helen that you don’t see, because I think she would need to protect Carol. So I think that would be really fun, to get to see that side of Helen. Where does Helen suddenly get a little scary? Where do you see the warrior come out?
I’d be interested in that, because she’s so even-keeled about it. It doesn’t ruffle her feathers. She can do it. It’s not a problem for her. And I think the Others would present a problem. It would be so fun — all of them. The fun thing would be for Helen to out-cheerful them. Have you ever done that? Where you’re in a room with someone, and you’re like, “I’m gonna be so nice to them that it’s gonna be painful for them.” I think that is where Helen can be like [huge smile]. That would be fun, right?
Miriam Shor Divulges What She Would Like to See in ‘Pluribus’ Season 2 Flashbacks
I’m so glad we got the ice hotel flashback to give us a bit more insight into them as a couple and into who Helen is. I would love nothing more than to see more flashbacks in future seasons.
”Dear Apple…” [pretends to type] You’re on an old-fashioned typewriter. From your mouth to the goddesses’ ears. That would be my dream. Come on.
Is there anything particular you would like to see explored, even just personality-wise? Could you share those with us?
All the things that we were just talking about. The same things that fans want to see, because I’m a fan. What was that conversation about freezing the eggs? What was that? When was it not okay between the two of them? What did they get through to get here? How did they meet? What were the hard parts of their relationship, as well as the great parts?
I think I would want to see that, because then that would sort of deepen the cost in a way. If it was just, “Oh, everything was always great between these two,” yes, that’s wonderful, and you need to know how strong that bond is, but now you’re like, “Yeah, but what have they gone through together? What were the hardest moments they went through together?” Because then it’s devastating when that person’s gone.
And then fun stuff, too. Let’s see, where are all the fun places in the world I’d like to shoot? I was always like, “Okay, we’re in Norway… or are we just on the soundstage in New Mexico? But they probably go to Maui, though, right? Or Tahiti. They’re definitely in Paris.” And then just all the places I want to go.
They’re well-traveled, for sure.
But I mean, honestly, I don’t care if they put me in a shoebox in the corner. Anywhere. Just to be back on that show would be really fun. And I am grateful that there is a device, storywise, that’s already been utilized for a flashback. We know Vince Gilligan loves a flashback and does them beautifully and in ways that really make the story so much deeper. So I’m hopeful. They’re still working on it.
I was telling Vince Gilligan’s wife, “Listen, when he’s sleeping, you just whisper in his ear, ‘Miriam’s my favorite. You have to write more.’ I wouldn’t mind if the fanverse wrote in, ‘More Helen.’ What’s your idea? What would you like to see?
I agree with you. I think some of the things that we saw mentioned with the egg conversation. I’d love to see their first meeting. I’m so curious about that. I just know it was instant banter and fire. That would be great. Give us a whole spin-off show!
Helen was like, “I’m not fazed by you. Come at me.” And then Carol would be like, “Oh… okay…”
She’s met her match. Oh, it’d be so good.
Or also if Helen was just like, “I see you.” And that would be disconcerting, because Carol is very careful for various, very clear reasons. But at the same time, if someone really sees you, it’s fucking fantastic. You’d be like, “Oh.” I mean, that’s what we all want.
So beautiful.
So beautiful! And how amazing in this moment — if I can fangirl about the show I’m on — that we’re looking at the most catastrophic thing that happens on Earth through a woman, a lesbian in her 50s’ eyes. Thank you. Thank you for that. I need that. And that’s emblematic of all of us. That person is representative of humanity. Fuck yeah.
Miriam Shor Talks ‘My NDA’ and How She Manifested ‘Pluribus’ Into Existence
Finally, I do want to ask, because my friend saw your documentary [My NDA] at SXSW.
I’m going to tie this in. The idea of truthfulness, and the fact that we all need to take a look at each other, and be truthful about it, and not be afraid of that, is what’s behind that documentary. Because secrecy contracts don’t allow people to tell their truth, and they don’t allow us to know the truth about ourselves either. We won’t survive if we don’t do that.
I really feel like that’s such an important subject for all of us, and it’s hidden. I’m like Helen — I don’t mind privacy. I really respect, honor, and cherish privacy. But dishonesty and secrecy are fucked up and harmful.
Do you have any updates about distribution for that?
We’re going to the festivals. I worked on this film for five years, co-directed it with Juliane Dressner. We premiered at SXSW, and it did really well. We have our sales team in place, and now we do what true indie films do, which is what so many documentaries are. You do the festival route, you get people talking about it, you drum up interest, and you just put it out there and hopefully get distribution.
It’s a tricky time for indie films — for all stories. The gatekeepers are more and more powerful, and there are fewer of them. Eventually, it’s just going to be one dude who owns it all. Maybe it already is. And that’s not what we want. We need a true diversity of ideas out there, so indie films need everyone’s support, and docs are sort of the spine of it.
It is interesting, the moment in Pluribus when Zosia and Carol are on the stairs, and Zosia reads the book Carol’s written, I realized. I was like, “Oh my god, there will never be any more new books.” I flipped out. I was like, “This is weird. There’s a lot of really awful stuff that’s happened — death and dismemberment — and I’m like, ‘[gasps] There’s no more books! There’s no more surprise. You need a surprise. You need a thought process that isn’t yours to create a collective.’”
The Others, to me, are sort of an artificial collective that’s imposed on everyone. The collective we create is when we all listen to each other’s stories. That’s the collective that is super-duper valuable. And that’s the way to be individuals and collective at the same time. So, the idea that there would never be another new book, I was flipping out. There are a lot of things about the fact that Carol’s a writer that really get at how we connect. We connect through stories, and she’s a storyteller, so there’s a lot there.
I bristle at anyone telling me I don’t get to hear a story. No one wants to hear that. It makes me insane. I can’t when someone says that. And then the harm that comes to people when they’re not allowed to tell their own story, when they don’t own their own story. I’m not talking about the plot of the next Spider-Man or something, or your algorithm or whatever. You want to keep it private, of course — sign an agreement.
The law in California is great now; one of the participants in the film changed the law in California so that it covers all 40 million Californians, and you can’t cover up illegal activity. But the fact you need to pass a law that says that is scary. It’s a cult we all are in, and we just don’t know it until we try to get out of it, NDAs. I think a lot of people don’t realize how important a subject it is until it’s too late for them.
